and then get out there and vote. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. a special live edition of "hardball" starts right now. battle stations. let's play "hardball." ♪ i'm chris matthews at hofstra university, two hours away now from the second presidential debate. let me start with this. i don't think there will be a more important few minutes in this presidential campaign as important as those coming tonight. just after 9:00 a.m. eastern we will see a spirited defense by barack obama of his four-year record or we won't. if we see it, this election campaign will take a strong new life.

if we don't, something historic will begin to die. obama has much to say in his defense. he inherited the economic carnage of a recent republican president, a catastrophic loss of jobs, a collapse in the u.s. stock market, the death rattle of the auto industry. he, barack obama, then brought a financial and economic collapse back from the brink, changed the course of the economy from job destruction to job creation, doubled the american stock market, saved the auto industry. he did it all with a dramatic change of policy, a stimulus program that varied 180 degrees from the austerity measures that have humbled europe. an intervention into the auto industry that reinvigorated an industry that means pride to americans. obama needs to make this defense, he needs to underline the fact that his opponent and his party fought him every inch of the way. on the stimulus, on the auto industry, on health care, on equal pay for women, and that it disagrees on fundamental ways on the future course of american economic policy. on health care, on medicare, on

social security, on equal pay for women. he has got to both defend and also hold his opponent accountable for his and his party's obstructionism from the first day he took office. it's a tall order. one worthy of an american president in a troubling but still hopeful time. i'm joined by msnbc political director, chuck todd, howard fineman and joy read. >> we have had two debates. did neither debate, president or vice president, raise the strong ticket issue of women's issues. will they do it tonight? >> he almost has no choice. when you look at the structural shifts in this race that we've been witnessing, the one thing that is held for the president is this advantage he's had with suburban women. however, there is some hints that this voting group could

peel away and mitt romney can get it. here's what we saw after the first debate. mitt romney's favorable rating went up with suburban women. his handling of the economy went up with suburban women. the only thing that didn't move enough was the ballot test. i think that's what you'll hear a lot tonight. you'll hear mitt romney trying to target these folks. not talking about social issues. you're going to hear the president, i think, try to bring this up in a way, because they believe this is their trump card into colorado, their trump card into virginia, their trump card in some of these suburban areas. you're right, they didn't bring it up a lot, although joe biden did. it's the one opening they thought biden exposed against paul ryan late in that debate. >> yeah, that was sort of -- it was done by his pushiness, if you will. biden kept pushing, pushing, until finally paul ryan broke and said what he really believed. a theocratic argument f you believe it morally you have to enforce it.

which offends those in the middle and the left. howard, you heard something about colorado. >> in the spin room just now, jim messina, campaign manager, was talking before the debate. we have prespin before spin. he said colorado was key. i said, who are the undecide voters? he said one example is undecide women in colorado. he specifically focused on colorado because colorado is a place where those women are being cross-pressured. on the one hand they're open -- libertarian, open to the economic arguments of mitt romney. then on the other hand, by the same token, they don't want government telling them what to do with their own bodies. they're very strong on abortion. strong on women's rights. they're strong on education spending. they're strong on pay equity. those are all things the obama campaign is -- >> why would a woman not be for at least equality? how can you -- i mean, you know, only three republicans in the house voted for that equal pay issue. which means you can't -- for the same work, you can't pay a woman

less than -- i say, when you grow up as a young girl, you ought to know from the time you're thinking about it, your work and time is worth as much as the boy next to you. why would any woman say, yeah, i'm going with pay inequality. that's my deal. >> that's one of the issues the obama campaign hasn't pushed enough. >> why haven't they brought it up? >> it doesn't make a lot of sense. i came from across the way where protesters are, a planned parenthood protest going on. a lot. women was almost a libertarian argument, what howard lsd. don't want the government telling me what to do with my body but i think the equal pay issue is just as res onate with women. there isn't a woman that i've talked to, that isn't shocked at the way -- >> do you think the difference on this personhood thing, this giving the rights of the 14th

amendment to life, liberty and property, whatever that mean, to a fertized eggs, seconds after conception, it's almost shariah law. >> exactly. what the president wants tonight is for a woman to ask a question about this tonight and mitt romney to have to look into the eyes of an actual woman and defend this idea of his party that it's the government -- >> on that point. candy crowley has a more important role than people realize. not only does she pick the questions, she knows who the questioners are. so, she is scripting the drama that results in who the questioners are. >> a bigger issue to you, chuck. it seems to me obama had an original plan. you covered this better than anybody. this an original plan of making the choice election, not a referendum on how you like things because things looked pretty bad a year ago. look better now. yet in the first two debates, especially his debate, the president didn't really carve out his achievements, auto

industry, bringing the economy back in the 7% range rather than the 10% range, doubling the stock market. there are a lot of things to talk positively about. is he going to do that tonight or just let that pass? what's he up to on that? >> i had an aide bluntly admit to me that, look -- and they said, his job tonight is simply to say why he wants a second term and what he's going to do. he's got to simply answer those two questions. yes, he needs to draw contrasts. and i sort of pushed back. i said, it sounds like you think the president didn't answer the roger mudd question, if you will, going back to the '80 campaign with ted kennedy. this person went, exactly. he has to answer that basic question. why -- you know, not just why do you want to be president. why do you want a second term? you got to look like you want it. that is what, you know, peter hart, one half of our polling team, did a bunch of focus teams. he was talking about in his analysis he was struck by how many in his focus group, some

supporters of the president, some undecided, some with romney, who came to the same conclusion and said, the president didn't seem strong on that stage. you got to look like you're commanding the stage. you know, one thing about biden, he commanded his debate, right? whether you love him or hate him, it was his debate. and as one person said, paul ryan was sometimes a spectator at that debate because biden sort of dictated the terms. romney dictated the terms of the first debate. who's going to dictate the terms tonight? >> yeah, but the question -- >> part of being strong is citing what you've accomplished as the predicate for what you want to continue to do. you have to make it a continuing story. >> no more promises. >> no. but you have to say, look, the trim lines are good. let's look at what positive has happened. i can't complete -- i want to complete the job for you. i must complete the job for you. here's what i've done. here's how i'm going to do it. >> andrew sullivan asked over the weekend, he said, ask romney to say one area -- significant area of policy where he

disagreed with "w." what's different than what we had four zeergz. >> that is the basic case the obama campaign is making. they have to do one additional thing. this is the thing that comes up over and over and over again. republicans saying it's his fault there wasn't more cooperation on the things he wanted to do. i think he also has to prosecute mitt romney and mitt romney's party a little bit. half of that ticket is a member of the united states house of representatives who obstructed this president since day one. he has to say, hold me responsible as president but hold your representatives responsible, too, because i've been dealing with that crowd over there for the last four years. they haven't exactly been doing what's in the best interest of the american people. and you -- >> i was in massachusetts and i was -- >> being a severely conservative republican -- >> and let me -- >> there are no examples of where he disagreed with his own base, tea party, zero. >> let's go to you, chuck. it seems romney took control of the stage last time. he walked in like the ceo to a boardroom. and he took over physically almost. obama -- certainly the moderator

were at loose ends to try to catch up with him. how does the president walk into a room where there's this big guy with total ego, self-confidence facing him down. will he look him in the eye? will he stare him down? does he want to do that? >> reporter: i think there's going to be a little of that, but both sides have been very careful to be saying, hey, we're not interested in having confrontations with the other guy. you know, i've had romney people say to me, he knows that he has to sort of balance talking to the room and the person that asks the question, while also trying to have a conversation with the folks on the couch. ditto on the president's side. they've been careful saying, look, he wants to draw a contrast, but he knows, you know, his job is to make his own case. yes, he's going to draw some contrasts with romney but it's not -- you know, i think that some people wonder, is it going to be a throwdown, if you will. both sides are saying they're hesitating to do it. i buy it on the romney side. i'm not sure on the obama side if they're just saying that and spinning us or if that's the case. look, it is not in obama's nature to be fully

confrontational. that's just not -- that's not what he did during the debates when his back was against the wall a little bit with hillary but he did find a way to be more suck sixty in his contrasts. >> what is the president is confronted with a little bit of sarcasm masked as corgeality. all mr. romney can say is you had your wheaties here, mr. president. what happens if he pulls that number? >> i don't think mitt romney will do that. talking to people who have been in town hall debates, the trick or the skill is to use the audience, to use the crowd, to get them on your side. it's kind of a bank shot thing, where you have to -- >> are they allowed to applaud? >> no, i don't think so. but they -- the idea is when you're answering the question, you're also appealing to the rest of the crowd, trying to get the crowd on your side, opposed to the other candidate.

that's what they're both going to try to do, i think. >> that's an important point. mitt romney board presentation act plays when you're at a electr podium. romney-m has to balance not coming across like that nasty ceo guy. a lot of snark can hut him in the room with those individuals. >> you know the hollywood role, the key is sincerity. if you can fake that, you've got it made. thank you, joy-ann reid and howard fineman, chuck todd. coming up, the biggest danger of president obama in the final stretch as a malaise sets in among his main support, especially women, his phispanic and young people. can he rouse the troops? bill and hillary clinton have emerged as major allies of the president in this election. hillary clinton took heat off the white house yesterday when she said she, not the president,

was responsible for the lack of security in benghazi. the former president has emerged as a major booster out on the campaign trial. so, just how important is the clinton factor this election? we'll get to that. that's always fun. plus, i'll go toe to toe with obama and romney stand-ins for another round-up "just answer the question," my turn to pose the questions i would like to ask the candidates in tonight's debate. jason chafman of utah will play president obama. let me finish with this, heavyweight battle. this is "hardball," the place for politics, life from hofstra university. hey. hey eddie. i brought your stuff. you don't have to do this. yes i do. i want you to keep this. it'd be weird. take care. you too.

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the for the second presidential debate. president obama rode a wave of enthusiasm to the white house back in 2008 putting together what is sometimes called the coalition of ascend ant. the president has to engage them again, he has a challenge this time. the latest nbc news/wall street journal poll. tested for enthusiasm. 73% of republican call themselves extremely interested in this elections, meaning they hate obama. four years ago at this time democrats had a 13-point edge in this department. let's talk about how they get it back for the democrats. antonio villaraigosa, mayor of los angeles. let me just start with you, mayor. how does tonight's debate, when probably between 50 million people watching and going back and forth to the baseball games,

how does he reach them tonight? what does he do tonight to get them rock 'n' rolling, going to do absentee ballot, we're going to vote? how does he do it? >> the format, the questions from the audience, obviously, and he has to answer and then pivot. he has to hit mr. romney's record. just because mr. romney says it, doesn't mean it's so. we saw it in the last debate he says a lot of things, none of which are based on fact or are true. particularly his misrepresentation of our record on medicare, which, as you know the president extends medicare and reinforces it. his own record on medicare, where he wants to turn it into voucher care. and a coupon program. so, he has to be very aggressive about defending his record and putting mr. romney on his heels to explain why he says one thing and then another and then another every single day, it seems. >> gene, i'm worried people my

kids' age, someone who never saw a president like president obama, they take him for granted. they think he's just another president. there's a big deference between him and the other choices. >> he has to outline the choices. the choices have to be outlined. i think to young people, latinos, african-american, the president has to talk about his record, talk about things he has done, show that he understands their issues and their concerns. be it unemployment, student loans, whatever. or immigration. and then he has to talk about what he has done, what he'll do in the next four years and contrast that with mitt romney's stance. for latinos, for example, i think latinos would be interested to hear the president's version of the dream act he implemented, which is an important issue, versus mitt romney's policy of

self-deportation. >> of 11 million people. >> that's a ludicrous claim he's going to do it. it's an insult. anyway, president obama swamps mitt romney among young voters, 18 to 34 age group but they're less enthusiastic this time around. now 52% of young voters call themselves extremely interested in the electric. back in 2008 that number was 20 points higher. and in an effort to fire up young voters, the president has been on a college tour of u.s. campuses. this last week he was at ohio state. let's listen. >> grab your friends, grab everybody in your dorm, grab your fraternity or sorority, join will i. am right after this event because he's heading to an early vote location and vote in the same place right now. there are buses around the corner that can get you there and back. so, don't wait. >> among latino voters obama beats romney now, believe it or

not, by 50 points. but the tricky part maybe their enthusiasm level again. now 59% of latinos call themselves extremely interested in this election, at this point in 2008 that number was 18 points higher. mayor, you come from that background, they represent a lot of people emotionally and politically as well. what is it? is it a lack of a long history of voting, habit-forming voting rather than just phenomenal voting, only when it's exciting? i think that's true with a lot of democrats -- >> a lot of young voters, a lot of voters lower socioeconomic and across the race, they vote lower turnout rate, a lot more renters, less homeowners. homeowners tend to vote at a higher rate. all of those things come into play. what you'll see new americans tend to vote more than older -- >> really? >> yes. >> what is the -- this is very important to political science.

why do people second generation in this country fade in interest? do they take things for granted? don't they think they can change things? what dispirits them? >> i don't know if i understand why. new americans, new citizens, they tend to vote in higher numbers, they also tend to be older, they tend to be -- and some are homeowners, but, look, we're going to have to lay out a record on immigration. mr. romney calls for the self-dough posterior tags of 11 million people. he says the gmac is a handout. he runs around with chris, architect of the arizona law. when the president talks about investing in education and lowering the tuition rate, one of the fastest growing groups going into college today are latinos. >> he may be a sheep in wolf's clothing because i don't think romney looks like a scary guy. that's the danger thing to democrats. he doesn't scare people.

he doesn't look like, you know, a guy with an axe handle. >> his policies will hurt a lot of people. >> yeah, i mean, so you kind of have to do both. if his policies are scary, you have to make him a scary guy. >> well, he ain't going to do it. >> but you have to give this positive, forward-looking view. this is why it's -- >> there's so much to do in three weeks for the obama team. >> in two hours -- >> tonight's a good night to start. mayor villaraigosa of los angeles, eugene robinson of "the washington post." is. up next from hempstead, new york, and our coverage of the second presidential debate at hofstra. this is "hardball," the place for politics. humans -- even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans.

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my question to president obama is, what is he going to do about student loans? >> student loans, a common question. go ahead, sir. >> i'm going to ask president obama what he's going to do about the predatory drones strikes in pakistan. >> where are you? >> we shouldn't be killing innocent civilians in another country with our own weapons. >> i want to ask both candidates what they'll do to end the war on women. >> what is that? >> taking away their reproductive right, even wages with men and disproportion -- >> why do you have a dollar bill? >> it's going to be the most expensive election in the history of democracy. >> do you blame citizens united? >> i do. i blame citizens united but it started long before that. >> next question? >> i would ask obama why he isn't pro life? a fetus is a human life -- >> we should outlaw it? >> yes. >> what do you do to women that have an abortion? what should we do? >> i think the only reason --

>> no, what should we do to a woman that has an abortion. you say outlaw it, that means criminalize it. >> yeah. >> what should be the punishment? >> go to jail. it's killing someone. it's murder. it's murder. >> how long -- >> it's murder! it's murder! >> how long? >> it's murder! it's a human life. >> how long? how long? >> it's -- -- >> listen, are you going to pay for all those kids, too? >> are you disagreeing with her? >> i'm totally disagreeing with her. women's rights, equal rights. that's what we're for. that's what obama needs to be -- >> next question. >> i would like to ask governor romney what he would do with all the other kids that now get insurance up to 26. >> yeah, that's a good thing obama's got. >> these kids won't have insurance when they get out of college. >> interesting point. next question. >> i'd like to ask governor romney why he wants to cut national endowment for the arts. >> why do you think he wants to do it? >> because he's trying to cut important programs that he thinks aren't important but they are actually really important for the -- >> thank you very much.

let's move down to this fellow who wants to get in here. >> how are you doing, chris? >> hi. >> i would like to ask mitt romney when is he going to treat the middle class with the same respect he gives his elitist class? when he going to come down and treat everyone the same. >> when is he going to recognize the middle class? >> any romney people here? >> i would like to ask obama what really happened in libya. >> what do you think happened? >> i really think it was a huge terrorist attack and they think they're trying to cover up -- >> did you read the new york times today? >> no, i don't read "the times." >> "the times" said it was a combination. yes, sir. >> i was just wondering what the president will do to get us out of afghanistan. >> do you think we should stay in longer? >> i don't. i don't -- >> who are you for, romney or obama? >> romney. >> romney will take us out when? >> romney has plans to take us out. >> faster than obama? >> yes. >> really? news tonight, ladies. news tonight. news tonight. >> i wonder what the candidates say about the economy, how

they're going to improve that. >> you'll hear about that tonight, i can guarantee that. miss? >> i would like to ask governor romney if he believes senior citizens should be able to choose between a private system and a public health care system, why shouldn't every american be allowed the same choice? >> have i to think about that one. thank you very much. we'll be right back with more "hardball." two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. and bp's also committed to america. we support nearly 250,000 jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger. you won't just find us online, you'll also find us in person, with dedicated support teams

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back to "hardball" and live from hofstra university for the second presidential debate tonight coming up at 9 p.m. eastern. no bigger democrats than the two who aren't running for president this year. bill clinton and hillary

clinton. and yet both are coming to barack obama's defense at a critical time in the campaign. john heinemann national affairs editor at new york magazine wrote a piece about the clintons and david corn of "mother joans," the author of "47%." i'm starting to talk like the guy on "saturday night live." >> i love you! >> let's talk about the internal relationship that is driving this. is it self-interest, is it bill clinton's love of the game, patriotism? what mix, what alchemy unites these? >> it's all three. bill clinton believes he and barack obama are on the same page. he thinks romney would be a disaster for the country and obama is pursuing policies that are now, not what he advocated in 2008, but what he's pursued in 2009, '10 -- >> moderate, center left

democrats. >> obama is no longer positioning himself as a antidote to clintonism. he says it's about working for the middle class, getting this stuff done. clinton loves that because it restores clintonism. >> it's for people that work hard and play by the rules. >> all that stuff. and self-interest involved, too. >> they converged. >> he wants the restoration of bill clinton and bill clinton's reputation, all helps hillary clinton if she runs. >> it succeeded for bill. bill clinton has won already. >> he's massive. >> you make the point no matter what happens, he's the good guy. >> he's massive. >> your thoughts? >> i think he is the towering figure on the political landscape. you saw his convention speech. no one does it better. he could have gone on for three hours and held the whole country -- >> here's a policy question -- >> here's the key thing barack obama needs to learn from him. the intersection of policy and

politics and how to talk about it in a way that doesn't talk down to people but brings it down to the ground, is bill clinton's great selling point. barack obama needs that tonight and in the next three weeks. >> barack obama has been campaigning for months, on the college toir, meeting people. there's something that's not there. certainly shows up for work. certainly is putting the time in. he's showing it with some kinetic energy. but something lacking in the spiritual quality of what he's commanding here. and he really want this as much as bill clinton loves it? >> well, i think they're no question he wants it. barack obama is a competitive guy. you know, whatever happened in the first debate, you know, i think is an anomaly, but he has to come out tonight -- you've seen him at the rallies. >> one thing that is true, he's not as hungry as clinton always was. >> for public -- >> he doesn't need to be loved or loved to be needed as much as clinton does. there's something about clinton that is just -- it's visceral and obama's never had that. you can still win without that, but the thing that -- >> he would campaign if there

weren't an election. >> yes. >> which is what he's doing now. >> that's what he's doing now. the thing clinton said, and kept saying during the convention speech, which was so perfect, implicit criticism of obama and what he was going to try to do was, people need explanation, not eloquence. that's his -- that was his mantra. >> if you were sitting with axelrod and the rest of the guys in chicago, washington, chicago, in headquarters, what would be your use plan for bill, from now, three weeks to go? weekend barn storming with the president, separate from the president, on tv, what would you do? >> they have him on tv to a huge extent. the clinton's ad has run 16,000 times in swing states. it's run more than any other obama ad. the obama ads with the two of them together running all over the place. they've got him now with an increasingly large calendar of swing state visits. it was supposed to be relatively limited. it's getting bigger by the day. they have days set aside in the last week where they are --

>> trouble-shooting? >> and thinking about campaigning together -- >> why wouldn't -- why wouldn't they do that? because that would be dramatic. >> they're going to, i think. what they're doing now is trying to spread the field. nine states to cover. get clinton out there, get obama in different places. same reason they don't send obama out with biden. cover as much ground as you can. at the end i think they'll close this sale together. >> yeah. i'd put him in allentown, pittsburgh, i'd put him in youngstown, in cleveland -- >> ohio, virginia, all the time, a lot. >> norfolk, yeah. >> this week, on thursday, clinton's doing an event with springsteen, two events, in iowa and ohio. so, they're already forming a traveling road show. they will use them, i think, as much as he can be used. >> let's go to the other side. they're going to try to break this up. tonight will romney try to separate the clintons from obama by saying something snarkey cl may be good politics? you let her take the hit for this libya thing. >> there's no question he'll go after obama on benghazi. >> will he try to separate them

from the clintons? >> he may. it would be an ordinary moment of strength for obama to say -- to put it all down quickly and say, it was gracious of what secretary clinton did. of course she runs the state department but ultimately the buck does stop with me. it's -- >> kennedy said, i'm the officer in charge. >> that would be a powerful thing to do. true and politically powerful. >> david, you think so? >> romney, he's tried to do this already, tried to raise clinton as the opposite of obama to put obama in a negative light. if he does this now with clinton, you know, really high profile, i think he does it at his peril because you have clinton out tomorrow or tonight thanking the governor for his remarks but that's not really the case. if you really care what i think, i'll tell you what i think. sets up the argument for obama even more so. i think it's kind of dangerous for romney to go after clinton at this point in the game. >> does this squeeze out any chance of biden running for president, this close

relationship between the clintons and president right now? >> i don't think president obama cares that much about succession. i think that she is going to be hard for any democrat to beat. joe biden is a wonderful guy. but he's not -- she is the candidate that the party wants in 2016. from the donor community -- >> women are heavily democrat. >> the party shows -- they had a tough choice between historic woman, historic african-american. they made that choice by a hair in 2008. they want to go to her in 2016. they want her. >> so i have you right before the close tonight, what do you want to see the president -- one word you want him to speak, what is it? 47%? what do you want him to say? >> i want to hear him say and embody fight. fighting for you and fighting for himself. >> and i also -- i want to see him draw the difference and tell people why it matters, why he is, indeed, different than mitt romney. more importantly, why mitt romney is different than he is. >> and is it a negative or a

positive campaign he needs to lead tonight in this crucial hour and a half? >> he has to do so much tonight. sell himself, sell his vision, sell his accomplishments and not let mitt romney get away from saying nothing or running away from his own position. >> can he challenge him on the fact that he slid away from so many hard right positions in just a couple weeks? >> he has to bring it into one thing. back to bill clinton at the convention, the two contrasting philosophies, we're all in this together versus you're on your own. if he can draw that as the difference between him and mitt romney, he'll get a lot of important work done. what specific examples to highlight -- >> candy crowley's role will be -- it may well will be the most aggressive of all modera r moderato moderators. >> she gets it pick the questions and, more importantly, the questioners. whether you get an unemployed autoworker whose job was saved by obama's actions or whether you get somebody who is a financier who wants less regulation on wall street. >> she paints the picture.

>> she's the director of the movie tonight. she's casting it. >> how about real-time fact-checking, can she do that? if he says something everybody's agreed in the mainstream media has agreed is inaccurate, can she call him on it? >> she's not supposed to by the rules, but i think if she does so, he has nowhere to run. he has to answer the question. >> it will be most interesting if one. people in the crowd fact-checks him. someone who asks him a question and says, that's not what i read. i've heard to the contrary. i keep up with the news. i want to see -- >> i would like to see somebody say, what will you -- what did you mean when you said you were completely wrong about the 47% remark? when you said people don't take responsibility for their lives, what were you thinking? >> especially if they happen to be one of those people. you know, as -- again, i keep going back to bill clinton. i saw him in new hampshire and his whole thing on the 47% was, you know who those people are, almost all of them, people that work. they work and would love to pay taxes.

>> because they pay payroll taxes. >> or have earned income tax credit because they're in the working poor. these people want to pay more attacks because it would mean they are making more money. >> bill clinton, you mentioned new hampshire. al gore lost the presidential election of 2000 because he didn't use clinton in places like arkansas, even tennessee and new hampshire. there are states where bill clinton can make the difference in the electoral college. >> new hampshire is probably the -- they're tied new hampshire now. >> he can do it. >> huge in new hampshire. >> i think using him in ohio, which is probably the ball game here, means a lot. he can talk to the working american. >> we can do this for two hour. thank you. up next, just answer the question, we're going to tackle the big issues in tonight's campaign through surrogates. i'm going to ask people on behalf of the candidate to answer my questions. this is "hardball" the place for politics. live from hofstra university.

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they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level. let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers... ...so they can inspire our students. let's solve this. we're back from half sthofs university for the second presidential debate. tonight it will require different skills, perhaps, more empathy on the part of the candidates, more compassion, whatever. the rules are the same, just answer the question, the way i like to say. with me now for "hardball" mock debate is joe crowley, democrat from new york, i think from queens, playing president obama. and also playing governor romney we have u.s. congressman jason

from utah. let's go to the first question to you, i'm talking to president obama now, if your face. >> yes, you are. >> i've been unemployed for three years. you say you created 5 million jobs. what do you say to me? >> i say we have more to do. i created 5.2 million jobs over the last four years of my -- in my term in office. we've created 500,000 manufacturing jobs in this country in the last two years alone. there's more work to be done and help is on the way. re-elect me and i'll make sure every job that wants a job gets a job. >> okay. let me ask governor romney a question. you say you want to go after iran even if they have the capability, that's the phrase, capability of producing a nuclear weapon. capability. how do you justify preemptive war? >> hey, look, one of our greatestallies is israel. we have to make sure we're standing with them in this fight

because they have said that they will use nuclear weapons to destroy the united states of america, to destroy israel. we're going to stand together with them. we have to prevent this and make sure that it never happens. we're going to negotiate hard. but the projection of strength will actually lead to, i think, a better negotiating position because under president obama it's gotten more tumultuous and worse. >> that will work with the right wing evangelicals and jewish but it's not answering my question. you haven't answered it. here's the question. your candidate says he will go to war, commit an act of war against iran if it even have the capability. not that it has nuclear weapons. but that he judges it has the capability. are you comfortable with that as an american? comfortable with going to war under those limited circumstances or extended circumstances? >> if there is a clear and present danger to the united states of america, yes -- >> no, a capability -- >> the president will take decisive answer that will --

>> that's rhetoric. it's not policy. >> it's a clear and present danger. if it does create a clear and present danger -- >> that's not policy. that's general talk. >> -- to the united states of the america -- >> it's talk. >> no, it's not. >> you're comfortable with the word -- you have to capability is enough for you? capability is enough for you. >> yes. i want to make sure that if there is -- >> no, capability -- okay, yes, all right, let's go. yes, you've answered it, finally. do you have any jobs -- all right, another jobs bill, and another stimulus bill in your second term, mr. president? >> i think we do need to do more to create opportunities. one thing i can tell you, chris, is i have a vision for this country. i want to restore the middle class. >> more jobs bills, more -- i want to protect women. and i'll tell you, chris, if i have a congress i can work, finally get a congress i can work, we can work together to put americans back to work. >> and you want more jobs bills and more stimulus bills. >> i'm about creating jobs in america, not like my opponent, mr. romney, who wants to create jobs in china. i want them right here in the united states. >> but the answer to the

question would be yes, more jobs bill, more stimulus bills. >> i think there's more we have to do together, and the congress and the president need to work together on the behalf of the american people, not just for their own self -- >> i hope it gets this good tonight. mr. chaffetz, let me ask about your health care bill. he keeps saying, if someone gets sick and they have a heart attack, we'll rush them to the emergency room, we won't leave them in their apartments or whatever. my question is, what is the romney health care plan? does it exist? is there such a thing. he wants to dump the obama plan. what does he want to create for the 40 million people, 40 million people who would lose their health care? >> no, i disagree with the very premise of that. but, chris, what governor romney has done and did as the governor of massachusetts -- what he did as the governor of massachusetts is he worked with an 87% democrat legislature in a bipartisan way to come up with solutions. the federal government doesn't need to try to solve every one of these issues. states can solve lots of these issues. and how we deal with it in utah is going to be very different in

massachusetts or florida. absolutely, it's going to be a little bit different. >> so it's very possible -- >> of course we're going to do this. >> well, wait a minute. >> i'm sorry? >> it's the year 2012. it's the year 2012. so when obama did it, nobody ever did it in history. and you're saying, of course we would do it. is there any evidence in history that the republican party would have ever created a health care plan? have you ever tried to do it? ever? tell me when you guys -- >> we have passed -- >> when did you guys create a health care plan? >> we have passed more bills that are now sitting in the united states senate than you can possibly imagine. there's more than 30 jobs bills, there's a number of bills that deal with health care. and yes, a president -- >> when is the republican party ever created a national health care plan -- >> president obama will grant each state a waiver. president romney will give each state a waiver, so they can craft and work with their own plan. there are certain things that the federal can and should do, and i would point to the example of what a governor mitt romney did with an 87% democratic legislature.

you've got to do it in a bipartisan way, not the way democrats did it, slamming it through without republican support. >> so there's no national health care plan, it's up to the states. >> that's part of it. it's an oversimplification, but we have to deal with medicaid. we want to block grant this to the states on medicaid, so that they can craft plans and have maximum flexibility, on medicare. there are things that we've got to be able to do. that governor romney has laid out. of course, we're going to tackle this and make it happen. >> so if you live in a backwater state -- no, if you live in a backwater state that doesn't want to do anything on health care -- >> what state is a backwater state? what state is a backwater state? i don't buy that. >> no, they're all going to -- excuse me, until massachusetts did it, nobody else had done it. who else had done it? >> no doubt -- >> who else -- >> there is no doubt. >> describe -- >> look at what happened in utah. >> i don't want to waste your time, but tell me the utah health care plan right now. describe it.

>> well, we have, actually, a high-risk insurance pool, so everybody, if they want insurance, they can get into insurance. we also have health care exchange. >> so if you get a disease, if you get sick in utah, what happens? and don't have insurance? >> you can find your way -- what happens? >> you can find your way to getting health care insurance. absolutely, that's available. it's a high-risk insurance pool that's out there. we also have a health care exchange. we also have one of the best systems out there to make sure that we're drive douing down tht of health care. >> what are you bragging about massachusetts, and you haven't done it yourself. you're saying massachusetts couldn't be more different than utah. >> chris. >> it couldn't be more different. it's got 87% democrats running it. >> exactly. >> you ain't got no health care plan. >> we do. we have some of the best health care in the nation in utah. >> i'm sorry -- >> before the state of the union, he pointed to utah as one of the best health care systems out there. so, despite what you said, even president obama points to utah

as one of the best health care systems. >> okay. thank you, very much. you have won the debate. anyway, thank you, joe crowley. thank you, congressman jason chaffetz. when we return, let me finish with this heavyweight championship fight we're going to watch tonight. i hope it's a big one, because it's so important. you're watching "hardball," live from hofstra university. the second presidential debate. in america today we're running out of a vital resource we need to compete on the global stage. what we need are people prepared for the careers of our new economy. by 2025 we could have 20 million jobs without enough college graduates to fill them. that's why at devry university, we're teaming up with companies like cisco to help make sure everyone's ready with the know how we need for a new tomorrow. [ male announcer ] make sure america's ready. make sure you're ready. at devry.edu/knowhow. ♪

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let me finish tonight with this. here we go. tonight's the night. the heavyweight championship. president obama knows the challenge. so does mitt romney. let's be honest. i have a sense that the challenger, that's governor romney, may go for the knockout tonight. why? because everyone thinks he will simply try to subdue the president tonight, keep him from a significant comeback victory. so what happens if obama comes into the arena tonight knowing he must win and romney comes in determined, resolute is his word, to do again what he managed two week s ago? what happens then? a true heavyweight bout. a real reach for greatness on the same night by the two men. one who will take the oath on january 20th and the one who won't. perhaps the one who would be president obama, that would be president obama, who will have to sit there across from the one who does. tonight, we will learn how smart president obama is, how tough a performer governor romney is, and which of these two assets will conquer tonight. surely a night to remember, a night even more to matter. and that's "hardball" for